Comments

HEY, GIRLS! We love hearing from you, but feel limited in the ways we can help. For one thing, we’re not trained counselors. If you’re seeking counsel, we encourage you to talk to your pastor or a godly woman in your life as they’ll know more details and can provide you with ongoing accountability and help. Also, the following comments do not necessarily reflect the views of Revive Our Hearts. We reserve the right to remove comments which might be unhelpful, unsuitable, or inappropriate.

monica
Re:
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 1:20 am
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Leader is an absolute must for me. I am not a leader at all and whenever I meet a guy that takes the lead, even in little things, right away I feel relaxed and safe. I've always felt like I missed having a male leader in my life and I CANT wait for the days when I can have someone to look up to and feel like I can trust.
Megan
Re:
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 4:37 am
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Thank you for the post Erin. I disagree with some of the points you made. In the bible it also commands all christians to 'submit to each other out of reverence for Christ'- the bible telling us that wives should submit to their husbands should not release the husbands from also submitting to their wives. How much easier would most relationships be if everyone submitted to each other.
Also, social context has to be considered: at the time it would have seemed outrageous for a women to be submitting to their husband.
Leadership is often translated from this passage to mean 'the husband makes all the decisions', actually husbands being 'head' in a marriage can be a very beautiful thing, as my youth pastors (they're married!!) put it: if the man loves the wife as he loves the church, then he cares much more about her than he does himself. They told me about one occasion where they had been considering moving to our town: The man felt that it was right at the time, but the woman felt that it was not right to move the children at that time in their school careers. She also found it hard to leave her church and her friends. Out of love for his wife, the man decided to submit to her will and later on, when they were both ready, they moved. We are so grateful to have them ministering to us, but I love it that they waited till the time was right and we have two youth pastors who want to be at our church!
I love seeing marriages like theirs and my parents that work through mutual submission, rather than domination.
Sorry if that came out a bit jumbled!
Erin Davis
Megan
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 7:48 am
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This is an important conversation. I am glad we are having it.

This post isn't talking about male domination. I think the Bible clearly points to the need for mutual respect. But the verse you shared about submitting to each other is written to the church. It comes directly before Paul gives specific instructions to husbands and wives.

As Christians, we all need to consider the needs of others ahead of our own. But the Bible does lay out a clear plan for male headship.

I think that the situation you described with your youth pastor is a great example of what this could look like. Your youth pastor's wife expressed her opinion (lovingly and respectfully I hope.) The Bible certainly gives freedom to women to to this. And her husband thoughtfully considered what was best for his family and then made the decision. Even if he had made a less popular decision, I still think that his wife needed to submit to him. Not so he could dominate her and her children, and not because their opinions don't matter, but because I think that God sets up male headship for everyone's protection.

I would be very careful about believing that God's ways change with society. Hebrews 13:8 tells us that He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

As is often the case when this issue is addressed, feathers get ruffled easily and what is truly being said doesn't get heard. I think the Bible clearly esteems women and men. I think God wants us to have relationships built on mutual respect and love for each other. I think both spouses should consider other's needs before their own. But I think ultimately the Bible makes it clear that the husband is the head of his own household.

When this principle is lived out, it is a truly beautiful portrait of Christ and His Church.

Erin
Last Edit: on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 9:01am by edavis  
Megan
Erin
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 8:39 am
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Hi Erin, thank you for replying to my comment, I'm starting to think that maybe we agree about more things than I originally thought. I re-read my post and I think that I maybe came across a bit harsh, so I am sorry for that.

You did address it in your comment but I still don't understand why the husband is released from his need to submit to his wife just because Paul addresses that particular verse to the church. Especially if both the husband and the wife are members of the church.

If you don't mind me asking: What is your opinion on having women in places of leadership in the Church? Along with some others, I have been asked to teach at youth events within our church and we have been told by some that Tim 2:14 (I think!) means that we shouldn't.

In Christ's love,
Megan
LindseyV
Question
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 1:06 pm
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Hey Erin, I was wondering about that first point - how does that fit it in with the need for community? Does that make him dependent on others for spiritual growth? Community gets talked about and encouraged a lot in my old church, and I always hear you can't do it alone.
I'd appreciate some input. :-)
Becca
Thank you
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 1:42 pm
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I am totally one who needs a guy to lead! It is not just that i need one, but i want one! I want to feel safe and be able to trust that whatever decision he makes it will be the right one. And that he has asked for Gods guidance. I think one reason i want i guy who will make wise decisions is because all my life i have had to be the leader, and the care taker. I did not have the luxury of having a mom who could do your hair, take you shopping, fix you dinner, or any other things a mom does. My mom has ALS (its a terminal illness) and she has been in a wheel chair ever sense i was 5, I am 15. I have had to do every thing a mom would do for herself and for her family. Now it didnt help much when my older brother got cancer 3 years ago either. Yes, i have my dad but he has to work. Now you might be asking what this has to do whit husbands and wanting a leader, but i can tell you that is why i want i leader. I don't what to have to be a leader any more.

But i know i must trust that God has a plan for my life and he will give me just the right guy!!
Elaina
If only...
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 7:21 pm
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Yeah, I totally believe that guys should be the spiritual leaders of the home!! I just wish there were more spiritual leaders in the world that were men, you just don't see that many guys committed to being the spiritual leaders of their lives!!
Traci
Yes, yes, yes!!! :)
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 8:37 pm
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This is so good!!! It is so unusual, SADLY even among Christians today, to be taught that the MAN is supposed to be the head of the home! That is what I have been taught (and believed myself!) :) all of my life, but there are so many who don't - thanks so much for this post!
I think that a true leader will not dominate but will seek out the feelings and opinions of others, being sensitive to them, while still basing his decisions on God's Word... not being domineering or trying to dictate over everyone, but being a SERVANT LEADER!!! This is definitely one of the top things of my "list"!
Miss Anonymous
Re:
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 9:04 pm
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Thank you :) That makes sense. We all need a leader, a really good one. I'm still trying to understand the whole "husband over wife" thing. I don't like being told what to do, I have to admit.
Stephi
great post
on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 at 10:59 pm
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I always have been a bit, shall we say, bossy. But I also feel loved when someone takes the time to tell me what way would be the best to do something. If a guy really cares about me, he will make the final decision, while taking into consideration how i feel about something. If i am strongly opposed, he should consider an alternative. Thats love in action. I shouldnt force him to do something he is uncomfortable with, either.
Shanni
Megan
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 12:18 am
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Megan, just remember that those in leadership positions will be judged more harshly, so its not exactly a privilege to be in a leadership position(that is from the word). When a wife submits to her husband, she is very protected from judgement because all she has to do is submit! She doesn't have to know what is best! She just has to submit! Also, this isn't the only place where wives are commanded to submit. It also says so in 1 peter 3;1 and colossians 3;18. It never says for the husband to submit! Submission really isn't a burden; it is a wonderful peace, and it is pleasing to the Lord. :)
Katie Sarah
Megan
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 9:30 am
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Hey! The Bible says that deacons are to be men filled with the Holy Spirit. I went to a Baptist church in Georgia, and they had a women deacon. Honestly I think that is wrong because the Bible says so. But small groups I think is okay because women are not powerless. I forget where the Bible says that. It really depends on how much control you have.

Also: Wives, submit to your husbands... Husbands must repect their wives, but I'm not sure if "submit" is the correct word.

Looking upward,
Katie Sarah
Erin Davis
Shanni
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 1:55 pm
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I couldn't have said it better myself. Great job presenting God's Truth in such a sweet way!

Erin
Megan
Shanni
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 2:26 pm
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Hi Shanni! Thank you for telling me your opinion on this matter! I appreciate it. I have been thinking a lot about this and I am starting to think that maybe it would not be so bad to be lead spiritually, so long as I have an equal say. I still don't think that a guy is released from his need to also submit but I guess that's just a matter of interpretation of the bible. Thank you again.
Erin Davis
Megan
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 2:42 pm
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Sweat Pea,

I feel like I need to step in and say a word or two here. I don't think that the Bible leaves this up to "interpretation." Clearly, the Bible says "wives submit to your husbands." I'm not sure how else this could be interpreted except, well...wives should submit to their husbands.

It is true that this is only one half of the equation. The Bible also instructs husbands to love their wives "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."

This is a much harder calling. Loving sacrificially as Christ demonstrated is tough! This is why it is so important not to settle for a man who doesn't understand or isn't committed to God's plan for marriage. We are asked to submit no matter how our husband asks. But that submission will come so much easier when you are married to a man who seeks to love you like Jesus does.

When I hear you reference culture or Biblical interpretation as reasons not to live out this Biblical principal, red flags go off. God's Word has always been true and always been true. We can't twist it to make it say (or not say in this case) what we like.

Hope this helps!

Erin

p.s. I've been married for almost 10 years. I am also VERY strong willed. I promise you that God's plan for the roles of wives and husbands works beautifully and protects my heart perfectly.
Megan
Erin
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 4:22 pm
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Hi Erin,
I just wanted to thank you for being so kind in answering my questions, I have only ever had the older generation at church saying girls shouldn't do this or that and it gets really tiring after a while, I want to stand up for God and do his work and I don't think that being a woman should hold me back.

I am honestly trying to understand your point of view and praying that God will open up my heart to whatever the truth is in this situation and that I wouldn't be held back by culture's definition of marriage or women. I just find it very hard to understand, my parents don't follow your point of view and I just don't see the loving God that I know would want to put women into a lower position than men withing the church and marriage (I know it's not supposed to be lower, but it seems that way). At a big christian conference this summer in my country (Soul Survivor, I don't know if you have heard of it?), the leaders said that they believed that marriages should be based on mutual submission and that more women church leaders should be raised up. That really made me think a lot about this.

I agree that the bible is not up for interpretation, I think I came across in the wrong way there. I promise you I don't want to skip over or ignore any parts of the bible, it's just that it does say that ALL christians should submit to each other and I can't see how Paul saying 'wives submit to your husbands' means that husbands shouldn't also submit to their wives. It's not like Paul saying 'Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the chruch' makes people say wives don't have to try and love their husbands (and everybody else to!) in the same way as God loves everybody.

Sorry to be taking up your time, I'm just trying to work out my thoughts on this.
It's kind of confusing when loads of people tell me different things about this passage, I will pray and ask God to reveal his truth to me.

I am glad you told me that you are strong willed and you submit to your husband! I really want to learn more about this issue as I don't want to enter a marriage uncertain of what I believe about it.
In Christ,
Megan
Lisa
Megan
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 5:25 pm
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I completely agree with Megan about mutual submission, not male "headship", and I believe it is very clear in the Bible. Plus, it's really the only way that makes sense in every day life as well.

I actually wonder why anyone needs to lead and anyone needs to submit? I mean, why do we even have to have a final say? If you're co-partners, there doesn't need to be a leader or a follower; they are simply partners.
AbbyS
Tough
on Wednesday, September 1, 2010 at 8:26 pm
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I know it's difficult to agree with, but then again who are we to tell God what's right for us? A marriage IS a partnership, but God wants us to go deeper than that. It's more on the lines on obeying His word, and trusting God completely with every aspect of our lives. In this case, it's letting the husband lead. It probably doesn't make sense right now, but the more you look into the Bible and begin to mature in your relationship with Christ, the more you understand that His will is perfect! And if that means letting you hubby wear the pants, then let him! Because God wanted it to be that way :)
And He doesn't make mistakes, remember :)

have a blessed day sisters,
-Abby
Megan
Katie Sarah
on Thursday, September 2, 2010 at 1:09 pm
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Hi Katie Sarah! I was just wondering what word you would choose to use instead of 'submit' in Ephesians?
Erin Davis
Megan
on Thursday, September 2, 2010 at 2:56 pm
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Whew! I can see where it would be confusing to have Christian adults teaching you two different principles.

I have given it quite a bit of thought and I think you might be hung up on something that you don't need to be hung up on.

I think we might actually all agree on what this looks like and just not be articulating that correctly.

Philippians 2:3 says, "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves."

This passage describes how we are to live in all situations and with all people. We should always consider others needs more important than our own and should seek to serve others at all times. All Christians should be living this way. In a marriage relationship, I think this probably looks a lot like what you would describe as "mutual submission." In other words you take care of each other.

But that doesn't change the fact that the husband is to lead his family. I can see how it might be hard to envision how this might play out but I just want to encourage you that God's design works beautifully. In my own marriage it is not like I daily have to give up what I want and submit to my husband. We love each other. We work hard to take care of each other. We both have equally important roles, but there have been a few times when I have needed to defer to my husband's decisions and he leads our family spiritually by initiating prayer with our kiddos, and always striving to make decisions based on God's Truth.

My best advise to you is to seek out the answers to your questions on your own. Don't just take my word for it and don't just take the word of the people at the camp you attended. Look for answers in Scripture on your own. Ask God to reveal His Truth to you.

James 1:5 promises, "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."

Erin
Megan
Erin
on Friday, September 3, 2010 at 9:04 am
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Hi Erin,
Thank you for your kind message. I have taken everything you said into serious consideration and I definitely agree with what you say about everyone having humility as it says in Philippians.
I wish that I could sit down with Paul and ask him exactly what he meant by the two uses of the word 'submission' in Ephesians 5! :)

I have taken your advice and looked further into God's word, I went onto a online bible dictionary that shows different translations of the text and the greek roots of words. As far as I can tell, the word 'submit' means the same thing in both uses.

If by submission, you mean to give yourself entirely to your husband, then I certainly intend to do that. I also intend to be more concerned about what is best for him than for me. As far as deferring to my husbands decisions, I will definitely be doing this, if it is for the best for my family, but I believe that the bible clearly states that both the husband and wife should submit to each other. Believing this, I intend to build a marriage on God's truth.

Thank you for all the help you have given me on coming to my own conclusion on this. It is my prayer that God will bless you and your family.

In Christ,
Megan
Hannah
Wonderful Blessing
on Monday, September 6, 2010 at 2:36 pm
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Erin,
It is a breath of fresh air to hear the biblical truth of the husband being the leader of the household! I have seen so many marriages where the wife is controlling the marriage, and both the wife and husband are miserable; because neither one of them are fulfilling the purpose that they were made for! Marriage is a picture (of course) of Christ and the church, and like the church, we as women are suppose to submit to the leadership of the husband, just as the church submits to the supreme authority of Jesus Christ! It¡¦s such a beautiful pictureƒº Thanks for the time that you put into these postsƒº
Erin Davis
Megan
on Saturday, September 18, 2010 at 3:32 pm
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I am so proud of you for the way you have approached this issue. You have been cool headed and open and I can tell you are definitely looking to God for wisdom. Keep looking to Him and you can't go wrong!

Erin

p.s. If you ever feel like you get this issue settled in your heart, hop back on the blog and tell me about it. I would love to hear about what God does from here!
Alley
thanks- huge encouragement!
on Tuesday, January 4, 2011 at 8:45 pm
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thanks for all the insight its so encouraging 2 know that there are other girls out there that think about this stuff. i'm not really that close to being of the age to get married or anything but i do often consider what type of guy i should be looking for. one of my main things is that he has to be able to LEAD wisely. i can't stand it when guys can't make decisions or don't care if others make decisions for them. however, i think its often a great temptation for the girl to take the lead instead of waiting patiently for her boyfriend/husband to hear from God. if you want a leader, let him lead!
Bekah
Thanks!!
on Monday, August 22, 2011 at 1:46 pm
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Thnks Erin for this!!! I have always known the guy I marry needs to be a leader most importantly in Christ!!! I am a junior in high school and have no boy friend but as I get older, I more and more think about this stuff!! I want to be committed to seeking the Lord's will for my life regarding marriage and am content to wait for the right guy! Sometimes I wonder how hard it must be, yet I know I want to make sure i marry the right guy!! Thank you so much for all of your encouragement!!! I really enjoy reading all of your blogs!!!!!
Liz
*Sigh*
on Thursday, June 7, 2012 at 1:27 pm
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I agree with this, but it is going to be hard for me. I am a leader naturally. I am always team captain on our church soccer team (guys and girls) and I have 5 younger sibs who follow me all the time. It comes naturally to me. People notice it about me. I will have to work on following, so! They guy I "get" has got to do what is best for US not just him, and listen to what I have to say. that is real important to me. Anyways.
--
Well
on Thursday, December 6, 2012 at 3:17 pm
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If you give any man the power over you to hurt you, and to make YOUR decisions for YOU... that's a shame. Marriage is teamwork, not dictatorship like this verse makes it sound.
Sarah, with the LYWB team
@Well...
on Friday, December 7, 2012 at 8:07 am
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Certainly the verse speaks to leadership and not dictatorship. That is why it is so important to choose a man that will live a life as referenced above in the questions--a godly man that will love his wife as Christ loves the church.